#271 More replies to comments of Shri Aseem Mishra
Mr. Aseem Mishra said as under October 11, 2013 at 1:03 PM.
Answer
First of all, my dear friend, your concept of a 'yOgi' and my concept of 'yOgi' differ. Yoga, in the sense of bhagavadgita refers to 'union of living soul of an individual with the Supreme Soul which exists within the individual as well as without (outside) the individual. Then SAnkhya yOga has its own problem of coordinating between the prakriti (Nature as reflected by this Universe) and purusha (Supreme Soul as creator of everything probably including Nature). That conundrum, many-a-great philosophers tried to solve in their own different ways. When we come to patanjali yoga, its ashTAnga mArga (eight-fold path) speaks of cittavritti nirOdhaha (control of the inclinations and deviations of one's own mind.
vivEkAnanda, during his travels in US, and during his lectures to aristocratic American men and women, apparently had tried to present advaita philosophy, rAja yOga etc., because he would have been branded as a heathen or a pagan, had he talked about more about bhakti. In the western eyes, the concept of Hindu bhakti, is pantheism and idol worship and that would have repelled them.
While doing all these preachings, on the dias, vivEkAnanda wore saffron robes. He presented himself as a Hindu monk.
In this context, we have to remember, that products have to conform to their labels, descriptions, and packaging. We cannot write "cow's milk" on the packet and keep "beef" in it, howsoever tasty beef may be. We cannot sell mangoes in the name of grapes.
Suppose, that vivEkAnanda was representing only himself and not representing any other concept like vEdAnta, advaita, etc. Suppose, vivEkAnanda did not wear saffron robes. Then, there would have been no question of problem of conforming to the tenents of Hindu monkhood or Hindu philosophies.
The label of a Hindu yOgi depicts him as a "jitEndriya (one who conquered his senses and sensual organs)". Bhagavadgita too supports it. These indriyas (senses) have both external manifestatiosn and internal manifestations. Eyes-vision, ears-hearings, nose-smelling, tongue-tasting, skin-feeling touch are external manifestations. These external manifestations carry sensations through various nerves to brain (our mind) and further processing takes place there. Brain and mind discern i.e. they try to distinguish between this sensation and that sensation, and thereafter, probably generate feelings of comfort, discomfort (sukh-duhkh), joy, sorrow (Anand-vishAd) so on. vivEkAnanda's mind too wandered around the distinction between the color of American turtles and Indian turtles. I shall quote from his Complete Works.
According to bhagavadgita, a yOgI is to become a person of steady wisdom who lives free from bonds and bondages, joys and sorrows. In other words, a yOgi can never have the word 'Alas!' in his dictionary. There should be no distinction between the taste of black and green turtles. Then, there should be no question of sorry/worry of being prevented (by doctors) from the taste of meat.
My dear friend, it is not I, who is stuck with turtles. It was vivEkAnanda who was stuck with turtles till his death (the above letter to Ms. Christina Greenstidel was dated Dec. 1901. vivEkAnanda died in July 1902. If vivEkAnanda was freed from the bondage of turtles and shad fish between Dec. 1901 and July 1902, we can heartily welcome it.
Had vivEkAnanda canvassed his own vivEkAnanda-ism, without representing hindu advaita vEdAnta, there would have been no case to bother about.
Answer: I did not have the fortune of seeing an accomplished aughad eating raw meat and a poorNa gnAni (person with complete awareness). Nor could I see a yOgi who could convert raw meat into chenna (bengAlgram lentils) or rasgulla (bengali sweetmeat).
Answer:
We have 1.2 billion Indians who have been tutored about the great deeds of vivEkAnanda and some hundred thousands of them are ready to argue and fight on his behalf. Some of them, may even be ready, to lynch me or behead me. It is here, probably I alone or a few hundred others, who are on the dissenting side. Even CPM is crazy about vivEkAnanda. I am not writing this out of self-pity, but out of firm conviction, may be idiocy, that what I am writing is based on facts and do good to Indians specifically, and the world in general. About of 80% of Indians are Non-vegetarians. About 80% of Indians are alcoholics of different degrees. Many Indian traditions (all religions), like the Western traditions (of all religions) may think only of compassion to humans and not compassion to animals. Hunting for shad fish, turtles, beheading chicken and sheep may evoke responses only from their olfactory and taste buds and no responses from the part of their brains which generate humane reflections. Thus, the 20% which thinks of non-violence and abstinence may appear moron in the eyes of the remaining 80%. Well, this country is pluralist, and hence no grudge. We can coexist living in the same country and on the same earth.
About debating with accomplished saints of vivEkAnand ashram and getting SHOVED by them: I welcome such accomplished saints to express their views. I am not an accomplished person. I hope that I shall get accomplished, after getting contact with them. But, my dear friend, please keep in mind. The main monastery which succeeded swAmi vivEkananda, claimed in Supreme Court of India, that they were not Hindus, and that theirs was a minority Institution. They want minority rights. Supreme Court did not accept it and treated them as Hindus. The details (No. etc.) of this case, you can see at another post, at this blog, or you can google at the website of Supreme Court of India.
I have never, or probably very rarely criticised the activities/charities of vivEkAnanda Ashrams. This is because, as a Marxist, I believe that charity is not a real solution for the problems of poor. Unlimited inherited private property is the hindrance in emancipation of poor. Running orphanages with Govt. grants and public donations with remainders left after conducting publicity rallies from airconditioned granite-panelled monasteries, expensive vehicles, air-travels may probably serve as ointments and not as cure. I do not criticise them because, some service is better than no service. (To continue. I may modify what I have written here).
Here again you do not contradict me at all. Your premise is , one who does that, eats that blah blah...is not a yogi!! How do you know?? Are you the one?? No so much hatred , spending so much time to criticise one without being sure if you are correct or not (going by logic I am "judging" you by your external moves)...if you are right then you are not a yogi and if you are nota yogi you may not be right!! Moreover You are lakeer ke fakeer...try hard to understand..I said vyadh gita also explains that. So to practise it one needs to be the author of vyadh gita?? If vivekannad was a nonsense so be it...why do you care? Bring out 100 morons and they will abuse most intelligent people on the planet..who cares? I am not inclined to convince you. But you remain stuck with your turtles fish etc and if you are lucky go and see some accomplished aughad eating raw meat and a poorna gyaani...he will give you chena ka rasgulla from mraw meat..then keep calculating if it is meat or chena. To criticisea person who is not here to defend is a work of cowardice. Arrange a public live debate with some of the accomplished saint of vivekannad ashram and if they care at all they will shove you to realise that you should be humanised and humanified first before taking others..Mr incorruptible fully accomplished superman.
Reply
My dear friend, you seem to have misunderstood me completely, probably because you have not read all the posts thoroughly or because your mind was already an ETCHED GLASS with some incorrigible-indelible concepts.
Indian Society, Hindu Society, world society, by and large are pluralist societies, which allow people to nurture their own beliefs, concepts and curiosities, delusions, ecstacies and exaltations, feelings, grandeurs, hallucinations, imageries, jovialities, kindnesses and knottinesses, loves-and-hates, madnesses and magnanimousnesses, and what not. There are no lower and upper limits for private pluralities. Civilities and laws may place certain limitations on individuals and institutions, when it comes to public pluralities. Freedom of expression of views is also a part of these permitted pluralities subject to some limits on concepts and manners like decency. What I have written here so far, and what I am going to write here in future will also be subject to the limitations placed by laws of this land.
You are free to point out whenever I cross these boundaries. Readers are there to take me to task.
question
Here again you do not contradict me at all. Your premise is , one who does that, eats that blah blah...is not a yogi!! How do you know?? Are you the one?? No so much hatred , spending so much time to criticise one without being sure if you are correct or not (going by logic I am "judging" you by your external moves).
Answer
First of all, my dear friend, your concept of a 'yOgi' and my concept of 'yOgi' differ. Yoga, in the sense of bhagavadgita refers to 'union of living soul of an individual with the Supreme Soul which exists within the individual as well as without (outside) the individual. Then SAnkhya yOga has its own problem of coordinating between the prakriti (Nature as reflected by this Universe) and purusha (Supreme Soul as creator of everything probably including Nature). That conundrum, many-a-great philosophers tried to solve in their own different ways. When we come to patanjali yoga, its ashTAnga mArga (eight-fold path) speaks of cittavritti nirOdhaha (control of the inclinations and deviations of one's own mind.
vivEkAnanda, during his travels in US, and during his lectures to aristocratic American men and women, apparently had tried to present advaita philosophy, rAja yOga etc., because he would have been branded as a heathen or a pagan, had he talked about more about bhakti. In the western eyes, the concept of Hindu bhakti, is pantheism and idol worship and that would have repelled them.
While doing all these preachings, on the dias, vivEkAnanda wore saffron robes. He presented himself as a Hindu monk.
In this context, we have to remember, that products have to conform to their labels, descriptions, and packaging. We cannot write "cow's milk" on the packet and keep "beef" in it, howsoever tasty beef may be. We cannot sell mangoes in the name of grapes.
Suppose, that vivEkAnanda was representing only himself and not representing any other concept like vEdAnta, advaita, etc. Suppose, vivEkAnanda did not wear saffron robes. Then, there would have been no question of problem of conforming to the tenents of Hindu monkhood or Hindu philosophies.
The label of a Hindu yOgi depicts him as a "jitEndriya (one who conquered his senses and sensual organs)". Bhagavadgita too supports it. These indriyas (senses) have both external manifestatiosn and internal manifestations. Eyes-vision, ears-hearings, nose-smelling, tongue-tasting, skin-feeling touch are external manifestations. These external manifestations carry sensations through various nerves to brain (our mind) and further processing takes place there. Brain and mind discern i.e. they try to distinguish between this sensation and that sensation, and thereafter, probably generate feelings of comfort, discomfort (sukh-duhkh), joy, sorrow (Anand-vishAd) so on. vivEkAnanda's mind too wandered around the distinction between the color of American turtles and Indian turtles. I shall quote from his Complete Works.
Excerpt from letter dt. 12th Dec. 1901 (six months before his death), to Ms. Christina Greenstidel ( Christine ), from Belur Math.
This is our best season for eating turtles, but they are all black. The green [ones] can only be found in America. Alas! I am prevented from the taste of meat. ... ".
According to bhagavadgita, a yOgI is to become a person of steady wisdom who lives free from bonds and bondages, joys and sorrows. In other words, a yOgi can never have the word 'Alas!' in his dictionary. There should be no distinction between the taste of black and green turtles. Then, there should be no question of sorry/worry of being prevented (by doctors) from the taste of meat.
My dear friend, it is not I, who is stuck with turtles. It was vivEkAnanda who was stuck with turtles till his death (the above letter to Ms. Christina Greenstidel was dated Dec. 1901. vivEkAnanda died in July 1902. If vivEkAnanda was freed from the bondage of turtles and shad fish between Dec. 1901 and July 1902, we can heartily welcome it.
Had vivEkAnanda canvassed his own vivEkAnanda-ism, without representing hindu advaita vEdAnta, there would have been no case to bother about.
Question:
...if you are lucky go and see some accomplished aughad eating raw meat and a poorna gyaani...he will give you chena ka rasgulla from mraw meat..then keep calculating if it is meat or chena. ...
Answer: I did not have the fortune of seeing an accomplished aughad eating raw meat and a poorNa gnAni (person with complete awareness). Nor could I see a yOgi who could convert raw meat into chenna (bengAlgram lentils) or rasgulla (bengali sweetmeat).
Question
... To criticisea person who is not here to defend is a work of cowardice. Arrange a public live debate with some of the accomplished saint of vivekannad ashram and if they care at all they will shove you to realise that you should be humanised and humanified first before taking others. ....
Answer:
We have 1.2 billion Indians who have been tutored about the great deeds of vivEkAnanda and some hundred thousands of them are ready to argue and fight on his behalf. Some of them, may even be ready, to lynch me or behead me. It is here, probably I alone or a few hundred others, who are on the dissenting side. Even CPM is crazy about vivEkAnanda. I am not writing this out of self-pity, but out of firm conviction, may be idiocy, that what I am writing is based on facts and do good to Indians specifically, and the world in general. About of 80% of Indians are Non-vegetarians. About 80% of Indians are alcoholics of different degrees. Many Indian traditions (all religions), like the Western traditions (of all religions) may think only of compassion to humans and not compassion to animals. Hunting for shad fish, turtles, beheading chicken and sheep may evoke responses only from their olfactory and taste buds and no responses from the part of their brains which generate humane reflections. Thus, the 20% which thinks of non-violence and abstinence may appear moron in the eyes of the remaining 80%. Well, this country is pluralist, and hence no grudge. We can coexist living in the same country and on the same earth.
About debating with accomplished saints of vivEkAnand ashram and getting SHOVED by them: I welcome such accomplished saints to express their views. I am not an accomplished person. I hope that I shall get accomplished, after getting contact with them. But, my dear friend, please keep in mind. The main monastery which succeeded swAmi vivEkananda, claimed in Supreme Court of India, that they were not Hindus, and that theirs was a minority Institution. They want minority rights. Supreme Court did not accept it and treated them as Hindus. The details (No. etc.) of this case, you can see at another post, at this blog, or you can google at the website of Supreme Court of India.
I have never, or probably very rarely criticised the activities/charities of vivEkAnanda Ashrams. This is because, as a Marxist, I believe that charity is not a real solution for the problems of poor. Unlimited inherited private property is the hindrance in emancipation of poor. Running orphanages with Govt. grants and public donations with remainders left after conducting publicity rallies from airconditioned granite-panelled monasteries, expensive vehicles, air-travels may probably serve as ointments and not as cure. I do not criticise them because, some service is better than no service. (To continue. I may modify what I have written here).
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